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	<title>Comments on: Europe&#8217;s Sabarimala</title>
	<atom:link href="http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/</link>
	<description>History, Current Affairs &#38; Books</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:39:01 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: froginthewell</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13678</link>
		<dc:creator>froginthewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13678</guid>
		<description>Arun : did I ask for stopping women from entering any of the existing temples? I am only saying that if tradition has reserved a temple for one group, we might as well respect it considering the possible reasons.

And would you protest against Sharada Maths not allowing men to go as much into the temples as women?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arun : did I ask for stopping women from entering any of the existing temples? I am only saying that if tradition has reserved a temple for one group, we might as well respect it considering the possible reasons.</p>
<p>And would you protest against Sharada Maths not allowing men to go as much into the temples as women?</p>
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		<title>By: Kedar</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13606</link>
		<dc:creator>Kedar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13606</guid>
		<description>There is really no point in defending something (yes, even in HInduism) that just doesnt make sense. And if it doesnt make sense, it most probably is against what the shaastra says in this regard.

There are many such cases when aachaaras have, over millennia, become atyaachaaraas (ati + aachaaraas). This is high time we weed out such atyaachaaraas from our system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is really no point in defending something (yes, even in HInduism) that just doesnt make sense. And if it doesnt make sense, it most probably is against what the shaastra says in this regard.</p>
<p>There are many such cases when aachaaras have, over millennia, become atyaachaaraas (ati + aachaaraas). This is high time we weed out such atyaachaaraas from our system.</p>
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		<title>By: arunk</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13576</link>
		<dc:creator>arunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13576</guid>
		<description>I am not questioning that undertaking such an effort can help someone with the right framework become mentally stronger. But then isn&#039;t the validity and rigor of the vrata itself diminished by imposing restrictions on *others* in the effect of making it easier for you? Wouldn&#039;t it be stronger to undergo it in spite of the presence of woman? Besides, tpeople undertaking the penance before going to the mala, are out there in the real world in the presence of women day in and day out during that time.  How does the presence of the woman AT the temple going to introduce any new wrinkles? I am sorry - like I said, it just does not add up. Also, there is &quot;willful avoidance of that thing which can cause violation of vrta&quot; - where the person undertaking it willfully avoids it by mental strength. Then there is one where he enjoys the benefits of societal coercion which arranges for these obstacles from appearing in his path. Which is better for his mental strength? And which is fairer to the society on a whole?   

However, ultimately if one wants to establish some form of exclusive rite or club etc. (i.e. religious or otherwise), it cannot be stopped. But it cannot be perceived as far either by many.

Arun</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not questioning that undertaking such an effort can help someone with the right framework become mentally stronger. But then isn&#8217;t the validity and rigor of the vrata itself diminished by imposing restrictions on <strong>others</strong> in the effect of making it easier for you? Wouldn&#8217;t it be stronger to undergo it in spite of the presence of woman? Besides, tpeople undertaking the penance before going to the mala, are out there in the real world in the presence of women day in and day out during that time.  How does the presence of the woman AT the temple going to introduce any new wrinkles? I am sorry &#8211; like I said, it just does not add up. Also, there is &#8220;willful avoidance of that thing which can cause violation of vrta&#8221; &#8211; where the person undertaking it willfully avoids it by mental strength. Then there is one where he enjoys the benefits of societal coercion which arranges for these obstacles from appearing in his path. Which is better for his mental strength? And which is fairer to the society on a whole?   </p>
<p>However, ultimately if one wants to establish some form of exclusive rite or club etc. (i.e. religious or otherwise), it cannot be stopped. But it cannot be perceived as far either by many.</p>
<p>Arun</p>
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		<title>By: froginthewell</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13503</link>
		<dc:creator>froginthewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13503</guid>
		<description>Arun : The idea is not that &quot;women being present&quot; invites trouble to Brahmacharya. The idea is that keeping a much stricter vrata on Brahmacharya for a few days keeps you stronger. Shabarimala represents one kind of austerity, other temples represent some other. Let us have both kinds of austerity facilitated by society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arun : The idea is not that &#8220;women being present&#8221; invites trouble to Brahmacharya. The idea is that keeping a much stricter vrata on Brahmacharya for a few days keeps you stronger. Shabarimala represents one kind of austerity, other temples represent some other. Let us have both kinds of austerity facilitated by society.</p>
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		<title>By: arunk</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13486</link>
		<dc:creator>arunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13486</guid>
		<description>I had also meant to post this - but somehow got cut:

About visual stimuli and men: If this were true, then the sculptures in (most of) our temples aren&#039;t exactly neutral in this regard - are they? Particularly per today&#039;s standards? Particularly when you compare them to how women dress to temple (yes even after churidhars etc.)?  So obviously the rule/tradition makers somehow felt men aren&#039;t that weak to focus on these sculptures at a temple. Otherwise the sculptures would be different in the first place. Or these kinds of outfit were &quot;ok at an earlier point&quot; - which would point to a way more open society. Either way, it doesn&#039;t seem to add up. Perhaps they are considered ok, because that points at tradition/history in which case this seems like a case of logic constructed to fit/protect tradition/practice. So while men are supposedly very comfortable by these sculptures, the mere presence of women who presumedly would be in dressed to show devotion at the temple on the other hand means trouble and only trouble?

Arun</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had also meant to post this &#8211; but somehow got cut:</p>
<p>About visual stimuli and men: If this were true, then the sculptures in (most of) our temples aren&#8217;t exactly neutral in this regard &#8211; are they? Particularly per today&#8217;s standards? Particularly when you compare them to how women dress to temple (yes even after churidhars etc.)?  So obviously the rule/tradition makers somehow felt men aren&#8217;t that weak to focus on these sculptures at a temple. Otherwise the sculptures would be different in the first place. Or these kinds of outfit were &#8220;ok at an earlier point&#8221; &#8211; which would point to a way more open society. Either way, it doesn&#8217;t seem to add up. Perhaps they are considered ok, because that points at tradition/history in which case this seems like a case of logic constructed to fit/protect tradition/practice. So while men are supposedly very comfortable by these sculptures, the mere presence of women who presumedly would be in dressed to show devotion at the temple on the other hand means trouble and only trouble?</p>
<p>Arun</p>
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		<title>By: arunk</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13485</link>
		<dc:creator>arunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13485</guid>
		<description>Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding, per the highest principles of  the religion, the ultimate goal is not an exclusive property of the man alone. It is equally entitled to the woman also. 

Hence while all these practices certainly has a logic to it (I would even dare propose logic constructed to fit/protect tradition), somewhere along there is an underlying presumption that  certain aspects is either exclusive domain of the male, or that situation must be made most conducive to the male, at the expense of the female. To me, this alone is enough to point at discrimination. Some may not agree - so be it. You can say that is reality/truth, that doesn&#039;t make it not discrimination - as there is certainly a lot that is unfair in the real world :)

Arun</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding, per the highest principles of  the religion, the ultimate goal is not an exclusive property of the man alone. It is equally entitled to the woman also. </p>
<p>Hence while all these practices certainly has a logic to it (I would even dare propose logic constructed to fit/protect tradition), somewhere along there is an underlying presumption that  certain aspects is either exclusive domain of the male, or that situation must be made most conducive to the male, at the expense of the female. To me, this alone is enough to point at discrimination. Some may not agree &#8211; so be it. You can say that is reality/truth, that doesn&#8217;t make it not discrimination &#8211; as there is certainly a lot that is unfair in the real world <img src='http://varnam.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Arun</p>
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		<title>By: Experiments in brahmacharya &#124; DesiPundit</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13483</link>
		<dc:creator>Experiments in brahmacharya &#124; DesiPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13483</guid>
		<description>[...] post on Europe&#8217;s Sabarimala generated an interesting discussion on brahmacharya and what it takes for men to withstand [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post on Europe&#8217;s Sabarimala generated an interesting discussion on brahmacharya and what it takes for men to withstand [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kaffir</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13465</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaffir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13465</guid>
		<description>Ah Jacob, did you even read my full comment and its intent and that it was in response to Arun&#039;s comment, i.e. there was a context? Or are you more interested in nit-picking? My point was simple and I&#039;ll repeat it: &quot;Just because women are not allowed in a temple, does not automatically imply some kind of discrimination.&quot;

And yes, I&#039;m well-aware that traditions and rules can and do change with time. Thanks for reminding me. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah Jacob, did you even read my full comment and its intent and that it was in response to Arun&#8217;s comment, i.e. there was a context? Or are you more interested in nit-picking? My point was simple and I&#8217;ll repeat it: &#8220;Just because women are not allowed in a temple, does not automatically imply some kind of discrimination.&#8221;</p>
<p>And yes, I&#8217;m well-aware that traditions and rules can and do change with time. Thanks for reminding me. <img src='http://varnam.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13451</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 02:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13451</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Women are also not allowed in menâ€™s bathroom in offices and buildings.&lt;/i&gt;

..and you think this is comparable in logic to  why women are not allowed in Sabarimala and Mt. Athos? If women can enter all other Ayyappa temples in Kerala, why not in Sabarimala? Previously it was hard to walk till the temple, but not the facilities have improved and there are many services.

The temple enrtry proclamation gave permission for everyone to enter. Previously, women had to wear traditional dress to go to the temple, now I see many temples allowing women wearing churidar to enter. So changes do happen and that is what is great about Hinduism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Women are also not allowed in men&acirc;€™s bathroom in offices and buildings.</i></p>
<p>..and you think this is comparable in logic to  why women are not allowed in Sabarimala and Mt. Athos? If women can enter all other Ayyappa temples in Kerala, why not in Sabarimala? Previously it was hard to walk till the temple, but not the facilities have improved and there are many services.</p>
<p>The temple enrtry proclamation gave permission for everyone to enter. Previously, women had to wear traditional dress to go to the temple, now I see many temples allowing women wearing churidar to enter. So changes do happen and that is what is great about Hinduism.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaffir</title>
		<link>http://varnam.org/blog/2009/06/europes-sabarimala/comment-page-1/#comment-13442</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaffir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.org/blog/?p=2310#comment-13442</guid>
		<description>Arun, while it&#039;s true that passion can rattle one&#039;s chains, if one&#039;s goal is trying to practice and cultivate brahmacharya, you&#039;ll agree that living in a brothel or reading erotica won&#039;t be conducive to that goal at all - at least for a beginner. Nor is it logical or practical to ask that neophyte to live in a brothel or continue reading erotica while cultivating brahmacharya. So I don&#039;t quite understand the point you&#039;re trying to make. It&#039;s like saying if a student has to study for an exam, he shouldn&#039;t complain about the noise from a loudspeaker; or those who don&#039;t go out and party the night before an exam, don&#039;t deserve it if they do well on the exam. Just because women are not allowed in a temple, does not automatically imply some kind of discrimination. Women are also not allowed in men&#039;s bathroom in offices and buildings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arun, while it&#8217;s true that passion can rattle one&#8217;s chains, if one&#8217;s goal is trying to practice and cultivate brahmacharya, you&#8217;ll agree that living in a brothel or reading erotica won&#8217;t be conducive to that goal at all &#8211; at least for a beginner. Nor is it logical or practical to ask that neophyte to live in a brothel or continue reading erotica while cultivating brahmacharya. So I don&#8217;t quite understand the point you&#8217;re trying to make. It&#8217;s like saying if a student has to study for an exam, he shouldn&#8217;t complain about the noise from a loudspeaker; or those who don&#8217;t go out and party the night before an exam, don&#8217;t deserve it if they do well on the exam. Just because women are not allowed in a temple, does not automatically imply some kind of discrimination. Women are also not allowed in men&#8217;s bathroom in offices and buildings.</p>
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